|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 37 post(s) |
Fade Toblack
Per.ly
The 20 Minuters
32
   |
Posted - 2013.04.18 14:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:In regards to enforcement, we don't have plans. It's not at the top of our to-do list. It's simply a case of while it not being allowed by our EULA, it's at our discretion whether or not the effort to enforce it is worth it or not. Right now, we're focused on botting, RMT, client modification that impact other players.
You're saying that in the forums, but the wiki page reads like this:
Quote: We recognize that some players have engaged in cache scraping in the past, and we want to be clear this practice is not permitted. That said, unless there is an extreme case (i.e., cache scraping combined with other EULA violations), we will not penalize players who have engaged in this practice prior to 15 April 2013. Now that we have made our intent and policy clear, we may, in our sole discretion, deliver appropriate penalties for players that engage in cache scraping after 15 April 2013 (including temporary or permanent bans). In addition, we also may consider eliminating the cache to eliminate this practice and for performance reasons.
Which basically says that any player who uses a cache scraper after 15th April 2013 (3 DAYS AGO!) can now be banned for that purpose.
ALSO SURELY THAT PARAGRAPH IS SO IMPORTANT THAT IT SHOULD BE ON THE DEV BLOG?
Thing is, I've used EveMon to cache scrape in the last 3 days. So in theory by the rule of the EULA you can ban me at any time.
I've used it in the past due to messages from CCP staff stating that cache-scraping was not reverse-engineering and outside the client and therefore not covered by the EULA.
Basically I'm finding the mixed messaging confusing, and this attempt at clarifying your position is only aiding to confuse things. In the dev-blog you're referring to the wiki page as being the official stance - eg cache scraping is now a bannable offence, meanwhile at the same time you're posing messages here saying that you're not going to ban people for using EveMon to cache-scrape.
Hell, let's take this further. On one hand, in the devblog you state that you'll never approve any piece of 3rd party software, meanwhile individual CCP staff are stating that people won't get banned for using EveMon - surely that's an endorsement of a particular piece of 3rd party software?
|
Fade Toblack
Per.ly
The 20 Minuters
33
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 14:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:Do you think people should be banned for using EveMon?
That's not the point. The point is that your message is confusing.
The wiki page says that I can now be banned from Eve for using a feature in EveMon that is on by default - because that feature breaks the EULA (reverse engineers cache files).
Meanwhile you're posting here saying that I can happily use EveMon (presumably as it comes out of the box) without fear of being banned.
Those two statements are contradictory - so which should I be adhering to?
|
Fade Toblack
Per.ly
The 20 Minuters
36
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 14:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
And sorry for the double post.
But ALSO you're saying that cache-scraping HAS ALWAYS been against the EULA - despite posts on the forums by CCP staff in the past stating the opposite.
So what notification will we get when you decide that you're going to go against ALL cache scrapers including EveMon. Are you going to back-date that too?
I also find it fairly despicable that you've offered an amnesty to people who have mistakenly done against the EULA in the past thinking that it was legitimate - however the amnesty is dated 3 days before you brought attention to it.
|
Fade Toblack
Per.ly
The 20 Minuters
36
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 15:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
Horatius Caul wrote:"Is this in violation of the EULA" and "Will I get banned for this" are two completely different questions.
Not entirely.
Is this in violation of the EULA = YES you can be banned.
So your second question then becomes: "What's the risk that I'm going to get banned for breaking the EULA in this way"
Now I've done something that was previous stated to be not covered by the EULA. So I couldn't be banned.
For the last three days, I have been inadvertently breaking the EULA. This means that I've been personally unable to make the risk assessment over whether I will get banned before breaking the EULA.
|
Fade Toblack
Per.ly
The 20 Minuters
36
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 15:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:
If you are using cache scraping purely for informational or utility purposes (meaning not to bot or otherwise cheat) then they excercise their right to NOT bust you for it.
That would be great, but we were previously told in forum posts, that we wouldn't be busted because it wasn't against the EULA.
We're now being told that it's against the EULA and (in a forum post) we won't be busted. Oh also that forum posts by devs should be disregarded as official policy, in favour of what's in the EULA.
So next logical step is...
I'm going to stop cache-scraping as soon as I can disable the feature in EveMon. Unfortunately I've already been breaking the EULA - and the amnesty expired 3 days before the announcement.
Also this is arguably the most important point of today's announcement - but isn't in the dev blog - it's only on the linked Wiki page.
|
Fade Toblack
Per.ly
The 20 Minuters
36
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 15:13:00 -
[6] - Quote
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Much more clarity is needed.
Is cache scraping to upload to Eve Market Relay or Eve Central illegal?
Is cache scraping to better manage you order portfolio illegal?
Is cache scraping to find the best trade routes illegal?
Is cache scraping to reseach the eve market generally illegal?
Is cache scraping to find out whenever someone beats your order illegal?
Is cache scraping to feed a manufacturing program with up to date prices illegal?
'Cache scraping is illegal when you use it for cheating' is not enough.
All of those are illegal by the EULA, as they give you an advantage over other players, and allow you to gain ISK quicker than them.
No post on the forums by a dev can override what you agreed to in the EULA.
|
Fade Toblack
Per.ly
The 20 Minuters
36
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 15:25:00 -
[7] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:
But you have to remember that enforcement is an entirely different beast. I know what Team Security is tasked with, as do all of you because we discuss it and details about it on a regular basis. We focus on botting and RMT, and now also client modification used by known bots.
That may be, but your statements on the forum are what's wrong.
If the EULA says that cache-scraping is illegal because it's reverse engineering.
Then you should be stating as fact, that EveMon's cache scraping feature is against the EULA.
Whether or not you're currently enforcing that is not a consideration. You SHOULD NOT be posting statements on the forum that imply that violating the EULA in this particular way is actually OK.
Now I realise that saying EveMon breaks the rules is a PR problem. But what you should be doing is offering an amnesty for some *future* date that until that date you will offer an amnesty to EveMon users. |
Fade Toblack
Per.ly
The 20 Minuters
36
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 15:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
So can a well designed spreadsheet. Is that illegal too?
See? Vague.
No because your spreadsheet is entirely out of the scope of what the EULA can cover. |
Fade Toblack
Per.ly
The 20 Minuters
36
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 15:34:00 -
[9] - Quote
CCP Peligro wrote:Lallante wrote:
Here's a summary:
1. If you do something dodgy to gain an unfair advantage, its almost certainly against the EULA and you may get banned if caught;
2. If you do something reasonable that is TECHNICALLY against the EULA but doesnt harm Eve or qualify as "cheating" in any meaningful sense, you wont get banned and they wont be trying to catch you.
This is spot on, thank you.
No you're still missing the point.
2 DOESN'T MATTER
What matters is what I agreed to when I signed up for the game - which says what is and isn't against the EULA. There's also a paragraph on a wiki that clearly states a particular action is against the EULA.
Posts by devs on the forums stating what currently is being enforced, are certainly interesting, but do not change the agreement I agreed to.
|
Fade Toblack
Per.ly
The 20 Minuters
37
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 16:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:
If, even though you have been specifically told it's okay, you choose to not use EvEMon that's fine. Nobody cares.
But the fact remains you have been specifically told the overriding goal of EULA and TOS enforcement is to use what is specified in those documents is to catch botters, RMT, and other specifically cheat oriented activities... and NOT to go after folks using common handy activities.
It really doesn't matter what was discussed in the past, this is your official word on the subject at this time.
I have a certain technical interest in doing some things that are completely within what CCP wants to ban, but aside from some speculative discussion in the pub I stay clearly away from those areas. I want to be completely whiter-than-white and continue to enjoy playing Eve in perpetuity.
Now cache-scraping was previously declared outside the scope of the EULA by an Eve dev. Therefore whether or not the action broke the EULA was never a consideration.
Sreegs stated that *in his opinion* it was within the EULA.
Today we've been directed to a wiki page that states that not only is it within the EULA, it's completely against a rule.
And this isn't the wishy-washy "gaining stuff quicker" rule. This is the blank-and-white reverse engineering rule.
So I've been cache-scraping for pretty much as long as there have been publically available cache-scrapers (Contribastic). So today's back-door-on-the-wiki announcement basically says that I've been breaking the EULA for some time now. And I _nearly_ get an amnesty however that expired 3 days ago.
So I've done nothing at any point I thought was wrong, but I've broken the EULA and lost that whiter-than-white status. |
|
|
Fade Toblack
Per.ly
The 20 Minuters
37
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 16:14:00 -
[11] - Quote
Lallante wrote:As an actual, RL lawyer I'm going to have to break it to you that this is bollocks. In practice CCP can ban you for no reason at all and you have no legal redress whatsoever
At which point we don't need CCP to "clarify" any policy at all. So the communication from CCP on this dev blog etc still completely sucks...
My problem isn't the policy. It's the communication.
|
Fade Toblack
Per.ly
The 20 Minuters
41
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 16:22:00 -
[12] - Quote
Lallante wrote:At the end of the day, this statement that cache scraping is illegal is a statement of general principle so CCP can keep their options open and prevent abusive acts. It doesnt mean anyone is going to be banned for using EveMon.
Cool.
So you're willing to underwrite that I'll never be banned for something that EveMon does?
As a RL lawyer would you ever advise a client to continue to do something that broke a law? Even is the risk of them getting punished for it was low?
Of course not. And this is the problem - CCP are vaguely stating that the actions of _some_ software eg EveMon is currently OK. Whereas, they should be stating that EveMon *clearly* breaks the EULA.
They don't want to announce that because bad-PR. So they should be giving EveMon an amnesty in some other way (eg a specific 1 month amnesty) |
Fade Toblack
Per.ly
The 20 Minuters
44
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 16:44:00 -
[13] - Quote
Manssell wrote:I'll laugh when the rest of the cache scraping programs gets banned too.
No actually today's back-door announcement is that they're already all banned. You just didn't know it.
To stretch your analogy, the local officier may be looking the other way whilst you're drinking on the street. Then suddenly his captain his turns up, and you found yourself in the back of a police car on the way to to be processed - as the captain has zero-tolerance for the same law.
|
Fade Toblack
Per.ly
The 20 Minuters
44
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 16:54:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:IgnoreTheDroid wrote:
Laws are different depending on where you live if you didn't know. e-Lawyer detected. Not everyone has the same consumer protection laws.
Which are not going to come into effect for a non-essential service like a game.
Actually it doesn't matter how essential the service is. The aim of consumer protection laws are simply to offset the advantage that corporate interests with deep pockets have.
Whilst we still somewhat get screwed over by the large corporates over here in the EU. It's a hell of a lot better than in the US. |
Fade Toblack
Per.ly
The 20 Minuters
48
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 18:57:00 -
[15] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:You have completely misunderstood the purpose and intent of consumer protection laws.
Please educate me. I'm always interested in improving my knowledge of the law and how it applies to me. Of course whilst I'm not expecting you to reveal personally identifiable information - at a minimum stating where you studied UK Law would be useful in whether you're qualified to offer such advice.
Ranger 1 wrote:Lets just leave this with if you do get yourself banned for some reason, let us know how that legally works out for you. 
CCP can already ban me - I've used EveMon past the April 15th amnesty. I've broken the EULA, which I believe makes my contract void.
|
Fade Toblack
Per.ly
The 20 Minuters
48
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 19:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
CCP Peligro wrote:Thank you for all your comments and concerns regarding cache scraping, we are listening and we truly appreciate your feedback.
After consulting with CCP Legal and Team Security, we are not prepared to amend the EULA at this time to address your concerns. However, your comments are good ones, and we will consider incorporating them with the next scheduled update to the EULA (expected this fall, 2013).
In the meantime, CCP confirms that we will only impose penalties on cache scraping if used in connection with other illegal activities in the game (i.e., botting). We will not take action against cache scraping for other uses.
This is good, but until you update this page: http://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/third-party-policies/
( wasn't this on the wiki earlier? )
Your forum post is pretty much meaningless.
I would suggest that the cache-scraping paragraph should be updated to read something like.
Quote:As of April 18th 2013, CCP do not consider cache-scraping for data gathering in isolation to be an abuse of the EULA. However we plan to review this policy in Autumn 2013, and may at that time change our policy.
|
Fade Toblack
Per.ly
The 20 Minuters
49
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 20:22:00 -
[17] - Quote
Andski wrote:Yeah uh the only way to get market data is through the cache
Not true. You can use the export button in the market. Eve Central used to have an uploader that worked with this exports. It's much more of a pain than cache-scanning, so you don't get the same volumes of data.
Of course you can also just note what appears on-screen in game,
|
|
|
| |
|